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Thread: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

  1. #61
    Sharp Shooter Zwitter's Avatar
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    00 buck was in use by the military and police a whole lot longer than the AR and 5.56. Guess what it is still in use today. Its seen battle in two world wars...and put people down for good then and will do so in the future. If that isn't relevant, then I don't really know what will be to you.

    But guess what they weren't using during these wars....oh yeah birdshot.
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  2. #62
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    [quote=Liet-Kynes]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Rhino-1":2koikiuy
    Easy to say in the cool, safe confines of a thread discussion. The chaos that is a confrontation will have you making decisions that differ from the best laid plans. I hope, and train, to be absolutely sure before I pull the trigger, but I know that things get wild and woolly when sh*t goes down. Sometimes kids don't do what they're supposed to, or run and hide in the darnedest places. I'd rather not ventilate any more walls than I have to.
    If you're at all unsure of whether or not you can keep calm enough to make a clear minded decision on how safe your shot it is, then maybe it would be better for everyone around you if you found another means to defend yourself. That goes for defending yourself inside and outside of your home. Obviously no one knows how cool headed they'll be until they're in the situation, but it sounds like some of you are already planning on failing.[/quote:2koikiuy]


    Edited because arguing on a message board is bullsh*t. Let's just say I do what works for me, and you have my opinion on what lives in the shotgun bedside. I train how I shoot and shoot how I train. I hope.
    "Attitude and purpose defeat the average man's concious mind at every turn." -tha dude

  3. #63
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steyr Shooter
    Would you stand 10 feet in front of someone an have them shoot you with #4 shot, and be confident that you would be uninjured? It's so ineffective right?
    I think this the wrong question. It's not a question of whether you'd be hurt, because clearly you would. It's a question of would you be incapacitated, and how quickly would that incapacitation be. This is about threat nullification. I have no doubt that a birdshot wound is going to hurt like a mofo, and it will certainly be a nasty wound to look at (hamburger meat is the term I've heard used), but from what I've read, even at close range, you're talking about a flesh wound, when what you need is to disrupt the body's vital systems. It just doesn't seem like there's enough kinetic energy in that small of a pellet to penetrate as deep as is needed, especially for anything other than a head-on aspect.

    There's certainly a risk of over-penetration with 00 buck though, so for my money, I like #4 buck as a good balance of kinetic energy, impact surface area and over-penetration risk.

  4. #64
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    looking at ballistic gel patterns #4 shot is the most immediately effective round on soft fleshed thin skinned targets. 00 buck takes longer to expand into a devastating wound channel but does penetrate deeper, which isn't necessarily required for the common target - which is people.

    all that said if I'm shooting somebody in my home I want to do as much damage as possible, not only on the way int but passing through and on the way out - so I run 00 buck in my HD shotty.

  5. #65
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by jbauch357
    looking at ballistic gel patterns #4 shot is the most immediately effective round on soft fleshed thin skinned targets. 00 buck takes longer to expand into a devastating wound channel but does penetrate deeper, which isn't necessarily required for the common target - which is people.

    all that said if I'm shooting somebody in my home I want to do as much damage as possible, not only on the way int but passing through and on the way out - so I run 00 buck in my HD shotty.
    I don't remember where I read it, but the point was that if your pellet leaves an exit wound, then it didn't dump all its kinetic energy into the target, which is what causes damage. Also, looking at the impact surface area was relevant. With a little bit smaller of a pellet you get more pellets, and there's a sweet spot where the impact surface area is maximized.

    You're not trying to make the target bleed out (which is all an exit would helps accomplish), you're trying to stop their essential functions from functioning. 00 will certainly do this as well as #4 buck, but an exit wound shouldn't really play into anyone's evaluation of a good load.

    According to what I've read.

  6. #66
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwitter
    00 buck was in use by the military and police a whole lot longer than the AR and 5.56. Guess what it is still in use today. Its seen battle in two world wars...and put people down for good then and will do so in the future. If that isn't relevant, then I don't really know what will be to you.

    But guess what they weren't using during these wars....oh yeah birdshot.
    Guess what else was used in a few wars. The 1911. Now the military uses 9mm, in many units. So again, going off of what the military deems "effective" why isn't the .45 still in use across the board? Again, just cause the military and police use it, doesn't make it the ONLY choice. This isn't an argument over which one is better, it's an argument about what is effective. So does that mean that the 9mm is more effective since the military uses it now, or does that mean that it is also effective.

    The fact that the military uses 00 buck doesn't mean that #4 is not effective, all it means is that the military uses 00 buck. Simple as that.

    Your argument, if I am understanding it correctly is that since the military uses 00 buck, that it is the most effective to neutralize the target. We have already shown that is not really a good argument because the military uses 5.56 and 9mm, which have at least some evidence to show that they are not as effective as other available ammunition. So saying that "the military uses it so it must be good" is unfounded.

    Like I said though, it doesn't matter what the military uses, cause this isn't a discussion about what is better, it's more about, "is bird shot effective?" which I believe it is. I am waiting for calls back from some slaughter houses and farmers. I am trying to get one of them to donate a pig so I can test the effectiveness of #4 bird shot. I won't be testing buck shot, because it is known to be effective.

    The results will be posted at the conclusion of the testing.

  7. #67
    Sharp Shooter Zwitter's Avatar
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    NATO is the cause of the 9mm. Look are our current war and the reissue of an "obsolete" rifle, the m14. Also the rising popularity of AR10s, people are wanting greater stopping power at any range. Another thing is some SpecOps units still use the .45 Force Recon and Delta come to mind. There hasn't been a substitute for 00 buck yet.
    00 buck was around before the .45 1911 too....

    LOL, if 00 is known to be effective, then why are you wanting to prove that birdshot is...other than to troll or to say its effective, but not as effective as buckshot.

    I'm a broke ass college student and I can afford some buck shot, whats your excuse?
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  8. #68
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwitter
    NATO is the cause of the 9mm. Look are our current war and the reissue of an "obsolete" rifle, the m14. Also the rising popularity of AR10s, people are wanting greater stopping power at any range. Another thing is some SpecOps units still use the .45 Force Recon and Delta come to mind. There hasn't been a substitute for 00 buck yet.
    00 buck was around before the .45 1911 too....

    LOL, if 00 is known to be effective, then why are you wanting to prove that birdshot is...other than to troll or to say its effective, but not as effective as buckshot.

    I'm a broke ass college student and I can afford some buck shot, whats your excuse?
    The issue is that 00, while effective also carries some risks. If a load can be identified that is similar in effectiveness, but mitigates the risks, what's YOUR excuse?

  9. #69
    zombiegristle
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwitter
    LOL, if 00 is known to be effective, then why are you wanting to prove that birdshot is...other than to troll or to say its effective, but not as effective as buckshot.
    .50 BMG is also known to be INCREDIBLY effective against human bodies at home defense distances. Doesn't mean you shouldn't look at alternatives.

  10. #70
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Afecks
    The issue is that 00, while effective also carries some risks. If a load can be identified that is similar in effectiveness, but mitigates the risks, what's YOUR excuse?
    Exactly.

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