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Thread: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

  1. #81
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwitter
    Quote Originally Posted by Steyr Shooter
    I was peppered at 30 YARDS go back an reread.
    Pardon me, you'd still be more than peppered. The federal tactical 00 buck groups 6 inches at 25 yards.

    and before you whine about proof or anything. Shows 20 and 30 yard groups
    http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
    and since its hard for you to search anything, its on page 6 of the pdf
    Doesn't matter.

    The grouping of 00 buck at 25-30 is not an important detail to this discussion.

    I'm sure somebody here cares what their 00 buck will groups at 25 yards. Thanks

    BTW, since it doesn't concern this discussion I didn't even bother to read, since we are not debating the effectiveness of 00 buck.

  2. #82
    Sharp Shooter Zwitter's Avatar
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    [quote=Steyr Shooter][quote=Zwitter]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steyr Shooter":28mjgnzf]I was peppered at 30 YARDS go back an reread.[/quote]

    Pardon me, you'd still be more than peppered. The federal tactical 00 buck groups 6 inches at 25 yards.

    and before you whine about proof or anything. Shows 20 and 30 yard groups
    [url="http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
    http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf[/url]
    and since its hard for you to search anything, its on page 6 of the pdf
    Doesn't matter.

    The grouping of 00 buck at 25-30 is not an important detail to this discussion.

    I'm sure somebody here cares what their 00 buck will groups at 25 yards. Thanks

    BTW, since it doesn't concern this discussion I didn't even bother to read, since we are not debating the effectiveness of 00 buck.[/quote:28mjgnzf]

    wavefingz man dig yourself deeper.

    Have you posted anything backing up any claims you have made? How about one link, just one link that says birdshot is "good" for home defense? How about it doesn't even have to be from a good source. Or will you just continue to post stuff you made up, for example "I was peppered it hurt" or "you stand in front of some birdshot at 10ft".

    And it has everything to do with the discussion, as a heavier shot is going to perform well close and far compared to maybe okay and poor. Any where in my home buck is going to out perform a birdshot at any distance. So how about you read it, then hop on google and look for your own links.
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  3. #83
    zombiegristle
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwitter
    wavefingz man dig yourself deeper.

    Have you posted anything backing up any claims you have made? How about one link, just one link that says birdshot is "good" for home defense? How about it doesn't even have to be from a good source. Or will you just continue to post stuff you made up, for example "I was peppered it hurt" or "you stand in front of some birdshot at 10ft".

    And it has everything to do with the discussion, as a heavier shot is going to perform well close and far compared to maybe okay and poor. Any where in my home buck is going to out perform a birdshot at any distance. So how about you read it, then hop on google and look for your own links.
    I was at least civil when I was debating this with him. No matter how solid your argument may be (and I'm not saying it is), nobody is going to listen to you if you post like an asshat.

  4. #84
    Sharp Shooter Zwitter's Avatar
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by zombiegristle
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwitter
    wavefingz man dig yourself deeper.

    Have you posted anything backing up any claims you have made? How about one link, just one link that says birdshot is "good" for home defense? How about it doesn't even have to be from a good source. Or will you just continue to post stuff you made up, for example "I was peppered it hurt" or "you stand in front of some birdshot at 10ft".

    And it has everything to do with the discussion, as a heavier shot is going to perform well close and far compared to maybe okay and poor. Any where in my home buck is going to out perform a birdshot at any distance. So how about you read it, then hop on google and look for your own links.
    I was at least civil when I was debating this with him. No matter how solid your argument may be (and I'm not saying it is), nobody is going to listen to you if you post like an asshat.
    Well he's had 5 pages to post an actual link to something, if that isn't enough then I'm not sure what is. If you are going to debate something, then at least have some proof to back up your claim.

    BTW this is me being civil, you should see me when I'm heated.

    I could post something like this
    Birdshot is really really good because its way cheaper, and I can make a jankey dangerous cut shell out of them.

    or he could actually post something relevant like one the first page of google, here let me do it for you
    http://www.diyballistics.com/?p=127
    tests random 00 buck, black cloud and strut shok turkey
    2 3/4 buck, to 3 in black cloud and a 3.5 turkey load...buck still out preforms but at least its some sort of test
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  5. #85
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Nobody is doubting the effectiveness of 00 buck, which is why all your posts regarding 00 buck as being effective do nothing for the argument, cause it a completely different argument.

    I am currently in the process of trying to get some pigs to use as a human analog to test bird shot. You are right it's based on opinion, but in all the shotgun shooting I have done, the evidence I have seen leads me to believe that birdshot is also effective as a home defense round.

    Using your same argument you have not posted anything definitive saying that birdshot is NOT effeective. Just a bunch of things showing that 00 buck is, which again, isn't in question.

    There is no need for the smileys.

    Remember, this is a discussion about the effectiveness of birdshot, not the effectiveness of 00 buck. Notice I haven't attempted to post anything saying buckshot is NOT effective.

    Before you post again, please remember the subject of discussion and try to stay on topic.

  6. #86
    Sharp Shooter Zwitter's Avatar
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    LOL, you didn't look at my last link did you...
    It shows two chosen birdshot loads would in fact "stop" an attacker. But they are high dollar birdshot not bulk birdshot. Neither where standard 2 3/4 nor cheap. Also the turkey load (which is a 3.5inch shell), while impressive in the gel would lead to horrible follow up due to massive recoil. The black cloud would perform like bulk birdshot. I would imagine a harder hit because of the 3in shell. Horrible surface wound but may not get past the rib cage.

    I await with baited breath for your pig test. Maybe you should bring along a unbiased 3rd party.

    Again I think you are missing why I bring up buckshot. 00 and #4 are the two most common HD loadings. Which is what the title is about home defense. If birdshot was common or effective, why are more people jumping on the band wagon so to speak? Why aren't the military/police/firearm trainers preaching about how great it is?
    Why isn't anyone but you or Rhino (first shell in only) saying that it is in fact effective.

    For the record, I used to load my first shell as birdshot, but then realized if someone is in my house to do me harm I am not going to risk my shot not being 100% effective.
    True,the points I brought up prove why 00 buck is effective, because its a standard that hasn't changed since the 1890s. We didn't field a shotgun with birdshot because it wasn't effective enough to do the job right. So my points in turn prove why it isn't effective in the role of shooting people.
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  7. #87
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    In closing, blah..blah,,,blah..fucking blah.










    c-ya!
    Lord if I die, please don't let my wife sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them.

  8. #88
    zombiegristle
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwitter
    Why aren't the military/police/firearm trainers preaching about how great it is?
    ...
    We didn't field a shotgun with birdshot because it wasn't effective enough to do the job right. So my points in turn prove why it isn't effective in the role of shooting people.
    I can't take people seriously when they use the argument of "it's good enough for the military, good enough for me". It's a copout to save them having to make their own decisions, and I've said so before in other threads. In this particular case, the military doesn't really worry about collateral damage, whereas said collateral is a "make-or-break" in a civilian shooting scenario. Why don't you just cut to the chase and roll a frag into the living room, take out all intruders at once? It's a proven manstopper, in use by militaries around the world for the last umpteen years!

    I do favor buckshot for home defense, and I do not recommend birdshot for anything bigger than a heavily-armed housecat. But your debating skills kinda suck.

  9. #89
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    I tend to think that most people use buckshot because they follow blindly all those people, not unlike yourself, that say that 00 buck and #4 buck are the only effective HD loadings.

    I live in a crowded apartment complex and shooting through even 1 internal wall is a bad thing. Even #4 buck will still go through 1 internal wall, according to your box o truth and various other tests I have seen. That is my main reason for using birdshot. I have shot a bunch and am confident that it will stop anyone intruding into my home, without traveling though any internal walls.

    Got a line on some pig chest cavities, just need to get ahold of the guy and hopefully work out a reasonable price, trying to get them donated. I am also going to build a small section of wall to put as a backdrop to see if any shot penetrates the wall. I will let you all know when I have everything together.

    Here's the process:

    Set up pig chest cavity with heart and lungs intact, as pigs are very close to being a human analog.
    I will place a flannel jacket over the pig to simulate clothing, medium because its the average. Heavier than a t-shirt but not as heavy as something like a Kevlar.
    Place a makeshift wall behind the analog, complete with 2 sheets of drywall, and 2x4s.
    Measure off 12 feet, this will put me standing at 12 feet from the analog, the muzzle about 10 feet.
    The shot of choice will be Kent Fast Lead, 2 3/4", #4 shot, cause that's what I have currently loaded in my HD shotgun now.
    Fire 1 round into the analog and report the results.

    To keep it unbiased, I will not draw conclusions, I will simply report the damage, and allow SGN to review the images and make their own conclusions.

    As long as there is no hostility, anyone here is welcome to come along and help with the setup and documentation. This is going to be as scientific as some novices can be. I will post a thread when I have everything together and am ready to start testing so that anyone who wants to come can attend.

    I am hoping to get a few of these chest analogs so that I can test other rounds.

  10. #90
    zombiegristle
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    Re: BIRDSHOT for Home Defense?...

    You'll want to do more than one shot, I like the number three when a larger sampling is impractical. I'd be happy to come along and help out, though I don't have any cash to throw towards the project. I can bring other guns/ammo to compare with, if you like. Shooting stuff is fun.

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