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Thread: Any democrat members here?

  1. #81
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayjax82 View Post
    When your only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail...

    I find it laughable that when one counsels prudence when deciding to engage in military action, one is accused of wanting to be an isolationist. One is accused of not wanting to engage in international trade as if one has to do with the other.

    Its almost as if you're WANT to be laughably obtuse.
    Prudence? I suppose it's better to just stick our head in the sand and hope it turns out okay.

    We forgot the lessons of WWII - when the world watched as Mussolini, Hitler, and Japan (and Stalin) grew in power and danger. That lesson turned into WWII, and the cold war. A few pre-emptive engagements could have averted WWII and 50 years of Cold War. Hell, one could make the connection all the way to our current global conflicts. If there was no WWII, then perhaps no Cold War, and perhaps no Russian invasion of Afghanistan, our CIA involvement in Afghanistan, and ultimately no 9/11 and no OIF and OEF... There is an argument to be made we still pay for the mistakes of pre-WWII.

    We watched and effectively did nothing in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s as Arab extremists hijack planes, bombed buildings, attacked the US here and abroad many times. How many planes and buildings should we allow to be bombed and hijacked before we do something pre-emptive? Can anyone here remember the warning signs during that 30 years of our head in the sand??? I can think of about 20, including airliners blown up or hijacked, 305 Marines killed in a barracks truck bomb, the World Trade center truck bomb in 93, the USS Cole attack, murders, kidnappings, car/truck/building bombings, etc. We certainly have invited terrorism in our "do little" or "too little too late" approach.

    These people (Arab extremists) understand one thing. A boot on their neck. IMO that boot looks like a big flash and a mushroom cloud. War is here fellas, and coming closer to home every day. We can ignore it, or go on the offensive and squash it before it infects and affects the world. It can be an away game, or a home game. That's about the only choice we have in the matter. WWII scorched earth policy defeated the Nazi war machine and the Japanese in just a few years, ending in a big bright flash. Sometimes you must kill your way out of these things.

    Or we can naively sit back and watch WWIII unfold and do nothing until it's too late. Embargos have done nothing to thrwart Iran and N Korea from pursuing nukes. Does anyone seriously think they won't use them or sell them to terrorists when they get them? We've tried the middle ground approach and guess what we've gotten - weaker. Our enemies don't fear us or stop their pursuits. They openly attack us or ignore us. Iran supplied AQI with IED materials during OIF, and that directly killed Americans. We did NOTHING to Iran. Nothing. Iran is the biggest supporter of terrorists in the world. That is intolerable and unacceptable. Iran should and must pay. One day, in the our lifetime, if we allow Iran to get nukes, we'll wake up to some city or several cities being wiped off the planet and we'll have ourselves to blame for having not learned the lessons of history. You cannot let your enemies grow to such dangerous levels of power.

    I'm not a war monger and think it should be a last resort. Many of our wars lately have been mistakes. But when you commit, you must be all in. We played nice in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Guess what we've gotten. Expensive stalemates and lots of American body bags. As a result, nobody takes the US seriously. We make idle threats and do nothing. That is bad for us. We should take 1 stance with our enemies and then show them why not to pursue their nuclear interests with a big bright flash or three.
    Last edited by leadcounsel; 11-29-2014 at 03:52 PM.
    Never shop at Precise Shooter in Seattle. I defend the 2A. US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF x4. BSM and MSM recipient. NRA Lifetime. I'm a lawyer, but have not offered you legal advice.

  2. #82
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    Quote Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
    Prudence? I suppose it's better to just stick our head in the sand and hope it turns out okay.

    We forgot the lessons of WWII - when the world watched as Mussolini, Hitler, and Japan (and Stalin) grew in power and danger. That lesson turned into WWII, and the cold war. A few pre-emptive engagements could have averted WWII and 50 years of Cold War. Hell, one could make the connection all the way to our current global conflicts. If there was no WWII, then perhaps no Cold War, and perhaps no Russian invasion of Afghanistan, our CIA involvement in Afghanistan, and ultimately no 9/11 and no OIF and OEF... There is an argument to be made we still pay for the mistakes of pre-WWII.

    We watched and effectively did nothing in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s as Arab extremists hijack planes, bombed buildings, attacked the US here and abroad many times. How many planes and buildings should we allow to be bombed and hijacked before we do something pre-emptive? Can anyone here remember the warning signs during that 30 years of our head in the sand??? I can think of about 20, including airliners blown up or hijacked, 305 Marines killed in a barracks truck bomb, the World Trade center truck bomb in 93, the USS Cole attack, murders, kidnappings, car/truck/building bombings, etc. We certainly have invited terrorism in our "do little" or "too little too late" approach.

    These people (Arab extremists) understand one thing. A boot on their neck. IMO that boot looks like a big flash and a mushroom cloud. War is here fellas, and coming closer to home every day. We can ignore it, or go on the offensive and squash it before it infects and affects the world. It can be an away game, or a home game. That's about the only choice we have in the matter. WWII scorched earth policy defeated the Nazi war machine and the Japanese in just a few years, ending in a big bright flash. Sometimes you must kill your way out of these things.

    Or we can naively sit back and watch WWIII unfold and do nothing until it's too late. Embargos have done nothing to thrwart Iran and N Korea from pursuing nukes. Does anyone seriously think they won't use them or sell them to terrorists when they get them? We've tried the middle ground approach and guess what we've gotten - weaker. Our enemies don't fear us or stop their pursuits. They openly attack us or ignore us. Iran supplied AQI with IED materials during OIF, and that directly killed Americans. We did NOTHING to Iran. Nothing. Iran is the biggest supporter of terrorists in the world. That is intolerable and unacceptable. Iran should and must pay. One day, in the our lifetime, if we allow Iran to get nukes, we'll wake up to some city or several cities being wiped off the planet and we'll have ourselves to blame for having not learned the lessons of history. You cannot let your enemies grow to such dangerous levels of power.

    I'm not a war monger and think it should be a last resort. Many of our wars lately have been mistakes. But when you commit, you must be all in. We played nice in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Guess what we've gotten. Expensive stalemates and lots of American body bags. As a result, nobody takes the US seriously. We make idle threats and do nothing. That is bad for us. We should take 1 stance with our enemies and then show them why not to pursue their nuclear interests with a big bright flash or three.
    Sir,
    if I may, disagree. nukes are to difficult to defend against as far to many bad players have them. My take is we need armored, highly maneuverable orbital platforms with high energy weapons and simply establish a Pax Americana. Behave with military aggression, commit mass murder, slavery, extortion et. al. and you will be toast. Then demand all people, everywhere, have personal defense weapons easily available. But that, is a pipe dream. Until the Chinese do it.
    “The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." Robert Heinlein

  3. #83
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    Quote Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
    Prudence? I suppose it's better to just stick our head in the sand and hope it turns out okay.

    We forgot the lessons of WWII - when the world watched as Mussolini, Hitler, and Japan (and Stalin) grew in power and danger. That lesson turned into WWII, and the cold war. A few pre-emptive engagements could have averted WWII and 50 years of Cold War. Hell, one could make the connection all the way to our current global conflicts. If there was no WWII, then perhaps no Cold War, and perhaps no Russian invasion of Afghanistan, our CIA involvement in Afghanistan, and ultimately no 9/11 and no OIF and OEF... There is an argument to be made we still pay for the mistakes of pre-WWII.

    We watched and effectively did nothing in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s as Arab extremists hijack planes, bombed buildings, attacked the US here and abroad many times. How many planes and buildings should we allow to be bombed and hijacked before we do something pre-emptive? Can anyone here remember the warning signs during that 30 years of our head in the sand??? I can think of about 20, including airliners blown up or hijacked, 305 Marines killed in a barracks truck bomb, the World Trade center truck bomb in 93, the USS Cole attack, murders, kidnappings, car/truck/building bombings, etc. We certainly have invited terrorism in our "do little" or "too little too late" approach.

    These people (Arab extremists) understand one thing. A boot on their neck. IMO that boot looks like a big flash and a mushroom cloud. War is here fellas, and coming closer to home every day. We can ignore it, or go on the offensive and squash it before it infects and affects the world. It can be an away game, or a home game. That's about the only choice we have in the matter. WWII scorched earth policy defeated the Nazi war machine and the Japanese in just a few years, ending in a big bright flash. Sometimes you must kill your way out of these things.

    Or we can naively sit back and watch WWIII unfold and do nothing until it's too late. Embargos have done nothing to thrwart Iran and N Korea from pursuing nukes. Does anyone seriously think they won't use them or sell them to terrorists when they get them? We've tried the middle ground approach and guess what we've gotten - weaker. Our enemies don't fear us or stop their pursuits. They openly attack us or ignore us. Iran supplied AQI with IED materials during OIF, and that directly killed Americans. We did NOTHING to Iran. Nothing. Iran is the biggest supporter of terrorists in the world. That is intolerable and unacceptable. Iran should and must pay. One day, in the our lifetime, if we allow Iran to get nukes, we'll wake up to some city or several cities being wiped off the planet and we'll have ourselves to blame for having not learned the lessons of history. You cannot let your enemies grow to such dangerous levels of power.

    I'm not a war monger and think it should be a last resort. Many of our wars lately have been mistakes. But when you commit, you must be all in. We played nice in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Guess what we've gotten. Expensive stalemates and lots of American body bags. As a result, nobody takes the US seriously. We make idle threats and do nothing. That is bad for us. We should take 1 stance with our enemies and then show them why not to pursue their nuclear interests with a big bright flash or three.
    I feel like I went over this with you already. To characterize what we've done from WW1 going forward as, "doing nothing," especially in regards to the middle east makes your understanding and/or knowledge of history highly suspect. Or highly revisionist.

    I think we bang at symptoms instead of addressing the disease when we fail to seek to understand WHY these things happen and perhaps make changes that will actually be beneficial to the world and the US. Why does Iran hate us? Why do terrorists hate us? How can we maintain our status as a world leader WITHOUT resorting to violence at the drop of a hat.

    Answer these questions with serious answers and we can begin a meaningful conversation on foreign policy(I actually agree that if we're gonna go to war, do it right. I just think a little prudence is necessary before you take that step). Until then you're just a hammer looking for a nail.
    Last edited by rayjax82; 11-29-2014 at 08:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco75
    i would eat jizz before you can fuck my wife...i just wont take it from the tap
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco75
    if Trump wins I will buy all you fuckers a Glock...but not a used SGN one...

  4. #84
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayjax82 View Post
    I feel like I went over this with you already. To characterize what we've done from WW1 going forward as, "doing nothing." Makes your understanding of history highly suspect. Or highly revisionist.
    Hmmm... given that we've let dictators (those against our US interests) around the world stay in power way to long or forever since post WW1, I'd say that our approach has been "too little too late."

    Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand so you have to spell it out for me. When was our last series of decisive wins? Heck, even Desert Storm taught us that we should have simple finished the job and removed Saddam, so it was a "win" in the sense that it bought us time but we had to go finish the job decades later when he ignored us (edited to clarify - ignored the terms of the cease fire, and continued to be a threat to the region).

    WWII was a "win" at the cost of a half million US service members, and millions of people world wide, and countless amounts of money and other expenses. Some simple pre-emptive moves in the 1930s could have prevented WWII.

    Having served in Iraq and seen first hand the wastes, and now watching ISIS behead Americans and take our equipment and threaten us directly, I would love to understand how our "sticking our head in the sand" foreign policy has benefited us. We really did secure victory, temporarily, in Iraq. I know. I was there. But we didn't lock it down permanently. So it was taken from us, because we showed weakness. And weakness is immediately capitalized by our brutal enemies.

    Oh, and let's talk about weak foreign policy in Syria, where red lines were crossed and nothing done. Russia's seizing land all over, too, in spite of our saber rattling. N Korea is going to build a nuke. And so is Iran. We are impotent to stop them. Is that the best idea? There is no middle ground. Either they build them, or we destroy them before they do. We are literally back in the 1930s, watching as Hilter builds up Nazi Germany and doing effectively nothing to prevent it from happening.

    This has been under Republican watch, but currently under a very weak Democratic watch.
    Last edited by leadcounsel; 11-29-2014 at 09:28 PM.
    Never shop at Precise Shooter in Seattle. I defend the 2A. US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF x4. BSM and MSM recipient. NRA Lifetime. I'm a lawyer, but have not offered you legal advice.

  5. #85
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    This x 10000

    i am sick and tired of voting something else or being asked to do so just because my group( Libertarians) is the minority in this country,

    if the Republican party didn't pick idiots like John Mccain and worlds biggest idiot (sarah palin) in 2008 and then again with someone that should have never even been close to a presidential candidacy ( dumbass romney) and his bullshit 47 percenters, , the republicans could have actually had a chance.

    I can't imagine what idiot the republicans are going to pick this time...

    and yes if you think romney or mccain were great candidates, then you really need to reanalyze and do some research on people before you vote.


    Quote Originally Posted by rayjax82 View Post
    Basically what you're asking people like me(libertarians) to do is to hold our nose and vote for someone who hardly aligns with any of our principles, and fail to realize that would be like you being asked to vote democrat.

    The republican party is just as much anti-freedom as the democrats. Both parties need to die.

    The problem is democrats are vocal in their support for statism. Republicans pay lip service to freedom, but do otherwise in action.

  6. #86
    Operator rayjax82's Avatar
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    Quote Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
    Hmmm... given that we've let dictators (those against our US interests) around the world stay in power way to long or forever since post WW1, I'd say that our approach has been "too little too late."

    Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand so you have to spell it out for me. When was our last series of decisive wins? Heck, even Desert Storm taught us that we should have simple finished the job and removed Saddam, so it was a "win" in the sense that it bought us time but we had to go finish the job decades later when he ignored us.

    WWII was a "win" at the cost of a half million US service members, and millions of people world wide, and countless amounts of money and other expenses. Some simple pre-emptive moves in the 1930s could have prevented WWII.

    Having served in Iraq and seen first hand the wastes, and now watching ISIS behead Americans and take our equipment and threaten us directly, I would love to understand how our "sticking our head in the sand" foreign policy has benefited us. We really did secure victory, temporarily, in Iraq. I know. I was there. But we didn't lock it down permanently. So it was taken from us, because we showed weakness. And weakness is immediately capitalized by our brutal enemies.

    Oh, and let's talk about weak foreign policy in Syria, where red lines were crossed and nothing done. Russia's seizing land all over, too, in spite of our saber rattling. N Korea is going to build a nuke. And so is Iran. We are impotent to stop them. Is that the best idea? There is no middle ground. Either they build them, or we destroy them before they do. We are literally back in the 1930s, watching as Hilter builds up Nazi Germany and doing effectively nothing to prevent it from happening.

    This has been under Republican watch, but currently under a very weak Democratic watch.
    Maybe we do need to take out ISIS, and do it as viciously as possible. My point is that NEEDS to be a conversation that includes possible unintended consequences. Then a goal established. Then an exit plan. Once again, THAT is not, "sticking our head in the sand." THAT is, "prudence."

    The problem is you're STILL not going back far enough. The middle east is such a clusterfuck of US intervention over the last 60+ years. Regime changes orchestrated by either covert or overt US involvement. Overt military actions against civilian targets. Embargoes that do little to hurt the governments we hate, but harm the innocent civilians of those countries. All these things lead to extremism, and make it easy for extremist groups to recruit people.

    Our foreign policy since WW2 has been anything BUT, "sticking our head in the sand," so I don't really understand how you can draw the comparison.

    Our current foreign policy consists of reacting to the unintended consequences of our foreign policy. I don't really think that's sound governance?? Do you??

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ary_operations

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions


    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco75
    i would eat jizz before you can fuck my wife...i just wont take it from the tap
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco75
    if Trump wins I will buy all you fuckers a Glock...but not a used SGN one...

  7. #87
    Operator rayjax82's Avatar
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    I'm gonna draw the following comparison. When someone like me, a proponent of the free market, argues with a socialist; you see a lot of, "well they just weren't doing it right, if they had just done it this way it would have worked."

    Its much the same with foreign policy discussions. The problem is that such things are so complex that trying to manage the affairs of other countries(much like trying to manage an economy) leads to a whole host of unintended consequences that no one person, or group of people can for-see. Whereas if you had just left it alone perhaps we wouldn't be in the situation we're in now.

    Which is akin to trying to dig your way out of a hole while someone tosses the dirt right back in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco75
    i would eat jizz before you can fuck my wife...i just wont take it from the tap
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronco75
    if Trump wins I will buy all you fuckers a Glock...but not a used SGN one...

  8. #88
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayjax82 View Post
    Maybe we do need to take out ISIS, and do it as viciously as possible. My point is that NEEDS to be a conversation that includes possible unintended consequences. Then a goal established. Then an exit plan. Once again, THAT is not, "sticking our head in the sand." THAT is, "prudence."

    The problem is you're STILL not going back far enough. The middle east is such a clusterfuck of US intervention over the last 60+ years. Regime changes orchestrated by either covert or overt US involvement. Overt military actions against civilian targets. Embargoes that do little to hurt the governments we hate, but harm the innocent civilians of those countries. All these things lead to extremism, and make it easy for extremist groups to recruit people.

    Our foreign policy since WW2 has been anything BUT, "sticking our head in the sand," so I don't really understand how you can draw the comparison.

    Our current foreign policy consists of reacting to the unintended consequences of our foreign policy. I don't really think that's sound governance?? Do you??

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ary_operations

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions


    Fair points. My counter would be that we have proven for decades that you simply cannot embargo or negotiate your way to peace in this manner. History has shown that decisive victories are the best solution. I refer back to WWII. We bombed the hell out of our enemies and turned Europe and parts of Japan into scorched rubble. We earned convincing wins. Japan and Germany never caused another problem. Now we buy their cars and electronics. It wasn't through embargos or negotiating, but destruction and destroying their will to fight.

    We can easily pinpoint and destroy targets without losing a single American and with minimal civilian losses. That's much more effective than an embargo.

    As for McCain, Palin, Romney, etc al. I challenge anyone who thinks Barrack and Biden were better candidates, then or now in hindsight. McCain's a proven individual. Palin had solid experience and isn't a terrible candidate. And Romney was a strong leader and experienced businessman. Barrack won because he's a charismatic black man who wasn't unwilling to tell one big lie after another and promise things that he knew he could not deliver, shamelessly at that. Biden has been on the wrong side of history on every major issue.

    I will say this - on which we can all agree. There should be a law where a politician should take an oath before every speech and if a politician tells a material lie to win votes, and that he later doesn't deliver on, he should be prosecuted for some form of perjury. I am so sick and tired of these people just lying to get votes.
    Never shop at Precise Shooter in Seattle. I defend the 2A. US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF x4. BSM and MSM recipient. NRA Lifetime. I'm a lawyer, but have not offered you legal advice.

  9. #89
    Jedi Knight jukk0u's Avatar
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    Re: Any democrat members here?

    A Marshall Plan for the mIddle east? Would that "buy" peace? $13 billion ($160 billion in current dollars, according to the wiki-foreign policy experts) was spent rebuilding Europe. Similar "reconstruction" was accomplished in the East. We tried that in Iraq and Afghanistan but started the reconstruction before the conflict had been/is finished. Bombing what we build....
    Nukes for Peace has yielded great dividends for us in Iran...tssk tsk....

  10. #90

    Re: Any democrat members here?

    If I was Iran and someone said I can't have the right to defend myself, I would tell them to fuck the fuck off.

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